Comments on: The Swami Narayan Experience http://www.ipatrix.com/1731/the-swami-narayan-experience/ Crossing Borders Crossing Cultures Tue, 31 Jan 2012 15:20:00 -0500 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Mhttp://www.ipatrix.com/1731/the-swami-narayan-experience/#comment-8489 M Wed, 29 Nov 2006 04:13:54 +0000 http://www.ipatrix.com/2006/11/27/the-swami-narayan-experience/#comment-8489 Couldn't have read this at a more opportune moment. I had stopped by a Hindu temple in Singapore yesterday and was very disturbed by a sign that read 'Tourists are not allowed beyond this point'. To me it was sheer discrimination and yes I know there are religions who have gender discriminations and the like and I do not support any of that crap either. But to bar people from entering a place of worship based on sex, color of skin, race or whatever is ridiculous and primitive. I being Indian by origin of course did not have any problems from entering. But then technically speaking I too was a tourist and should have been stopped. They might as well say non-Hindu or foreigners are barred. It disgusted me so much that I refused to go inside the temple and left. I cannot be more angry about that right now and reading this makes me even more mad. Couldn’t have read this at a more opportune moment. I had stopped by a Hindu temple in Singapore yesterday and was very disturbed by a sign that read ‘Tourists are not allowed beyond this point’. To me it was sheer discrimination and yes I know there are religions who have gender discriminations and the like and I do not support any of that crap either. But to bar people from entering a place of worship based on sex, color of skin, race or whatever is ridiculous and primitive. I being Indian by origin of course did not have any problems from entering. But then technically speaking I too was a tourist and should have been stopped. They might as well say non-Hindu or foreigners are barred. It disgusted me so much that I refused to go inside the temple and left. I cannot be more angry about that right now and reading this makes me even more mad.

]]> By: Patrixhttp://www.ipatrix.com/1731/the-swami-narayan-experience/#comment-8484 Patrix Tue, 28 Nov 2006 19:05:16 +0000 http://www.ipatrix.com/2006/11/27/the-swami-narayan-experience/#comment-8484 <strong>Ashish</strong>, your comment was stuck in the moderation queue. Anyway, I appreciate your thoughts and if I may clarify, I never intended to deny any person the right to choose the way they worship or whom they choose to worship. I made a personal decision and I think my post also made it clear that *I* am not comfortable with such form of worship and hence will not go to such a temple. Regarding gender discrimination, I fail to understand how you cannot see the obvious discrimination. The toilet separation is a different matter as it pertains to an individual's right to privacy based on certain agreed-upon customs. By placing the women behind the velvet rope and also behind the men while worshiping the deity, it implies a second-class status. Even children were not spared in this separation. I didn't agree with Karthik's comparison with Islam either because the severity of discrimination, as you mentioned, is less but nevertheless exists. Ashish, your comment was stuck in the moderation queue. Anyway, I appreciate your thoughts and if I may clarify, I never intended to deny any person the right to choose the way they worship or whom they choose to worship. I made a personal decision and I think my post also made it clear that *I* am not comfortable with such form of worship and hence will not go to such a temple.

Regarding gender discrimination, I fail to understand how you cannot see the obvious discrimination. The toilet separation is a different matter as it pertains to an individual’s right to privacy based on certain agreed-upon customs. By placing the women behind the velvet rope and also behind the men while worshiping the deity, it implies a second-class status. Even children were not spared in this separation. I didn’t agree with Karthik’s comparison with Islam either because the severity of discrimination, as you mentioned, is less but nevertheless exists.

]]> By: Ashish Guptahttp://www.ipatrix.com/1731/the-swami-narayan-experience/#comment-8483 Ashish Gupta Tue, 28 Nov 2006 18:01:02 +0000 http://www.ipatrix.com/2006/11/27/the-swami-narayan-experience/#comment-8483 I my 200 words comment has been eaten by the word verification javascript. :( I my 200 words comment has been eaten by the word verification javascript. :(

]]> By: Ashish Guptahttp://www.ipatrix.com/1731/the-swami-narayan-experience/#comment-8482 Ashish Gupta Tue, 28 Nov 2006 17:58:10 +0000 http://www.ipatrix.com/2006/11/27/the-swami-narayan-experience/#comment-8482 I think it is beauty of Hinduism that God-class is not exclusively defined. Good human beings, be it Rama, Krishna, Sai Baba, or MK Gandhi, can be considered by gods by their followers and still there is no retribution. It is in resonance with the basic philosophy that everything is manifestation of God, and He and His forms are not separate. I wouldn't personally pray to god-men but I don't see why should I bother by those who do. Separation of man and woman, in my view, cannot be considered discrimination unless one group has more rights/opportunities than others. Do you call it discrimination when there are separate gents- and ladies-toilets? If men and women pray and remove footwear in different places, that's just (strange) custom, but not derogatory or discriminatory by any means, IMO. <em>@Kartik</em>: I don't see why believing in guru is sign of week mind? Can one not respect and follow any person, be it parent, teacher, boss, book, idea, philosophy, role model, or spiritual guide, if one finds said guru's ideas useful? Lastly, while I am well aware of women oriented discrimination in Hinduism, I would refrain to make blanket statements like "not far behind Islam" without really knowing what Islam states for women. If you do know, then our measures of relative severity of discriminations is way off-scale. Via Desipundit. I think it is beauty of Hinduism that God-class is not exclusively defined. Good human beings, be it Rama, Krishna, Sai Baba, or MK Gandhi, can be considered by gods by their followers and still there is no retribution. It is in resonance with the basic philosophy that everything is manifestation of God, and He and His forms are not separate. I wouldn’t personally pray to god-men but I don’t see why should I bother by those who do.

Separation of man and woman, in my view, cannot be considered discrimination unless one group has more rights/opportunities than others. Do you call it discrimination when there are separate gents- and ladies-toilets? If men and women pray and remove footwear in different places, that’s just (strange) custom, but not derogatory or discriminatory by any means, IMO.

@Kartik: I don’t see why believing in guru is sign of week mind? Can one not respect and follow any person, be it parent, teacher, boss, book, idea, philosophy, role model, or spiritual guide, if one finds said guru’s ideas useful? Lastly, while I am well aware of women oriented discrimination in Hinduism, I would refrain to make blanket statements like “not far behind Islam” without really knowing what Islam states for women. If you do know, then our measures of relative severity of discriminations is way off-scale.

Via Desipundit.

]]> By: Patrixhttp://www.ipatrix.com/1731/the-swami-narayan-experience/#comment-8481 Patrix Tue, 28 Nov 2006 15:41:06 +0000 http://www.ipatrix.com/2006/11/27/the-swami-narayan-experience/#comment-8481 <strong>Kumar</strong>, Hindus may not be the most 'week minded' (sic) but like in any religion, we have our share of nuts. Since there are so many of us (Hindus), the proportion of nuts is going to higher too. The reverence of swamis and gurus start off on a note of respect for being spiritual leaders but then gradually transcend into worship. That is the part I am uncomfortable with. <strong>Vi</strong>, is the Bridgewater temple a Swami Narayan Temple? The divider between men and women is put up during aarti times only, I guess. Kumar, Hindus may not be the most ‘week minded’ (sic) but like in any religion, we have our share of nuts. Since there are so many of us (Hindus), the proportion of nuts is going to higher too. The reverence of swamis and gurus start off on a note of respect for being spiritual leaders but then gradually transcend into worship. That is the part I am uncomfortable with.

Vi, is the Bridgewater temple a Swami Narayan Temple? The divider between men and women is put up during aarti times only, I guess.

]]> By: Vihttp://www.ipatrix.com/1731/the-swami-narayan-experience/#comment-8479 Vi Tue, 28 Nov 2006 14:51:37 +0000 http://www.ipatrix.com/2006/11/27/the-swami-narayan-experience/#comment-8479 That's very strange! The only temple I visit is the one in Bridgewater in NJ, and there's no divider between men and women...but I agree with you, praying to god-men doesn't strike my fancy either. That’s very strange! The only temple I visit is the one in Bridgewater in NJ, and there’s no divider between men and women…but I agree with you, praying to god-men doesn’t strike my fancy either.

]]> By: Kumar Kartikhttp://www.ipatrix.com/1731/the-swami-narayan-experience/#comment-8477 Kumar Kartik Tue, 28 Nov 2006 13:03:41 +0000 http://www.ipatrix.com/2006/11/27/the-swami-narayan-experience/#comment-8477 I fully agree with Patrix. Hinduism is not far behind Islam in Gender discrimination. And , the priests, less said the better. Swamis and gurus are the greatest fraud played on the Hindus. Pity even in 2006 people believe in these gurus. I feel sometimes that Hindus are the most week minded. I fully agree with Patrix. Hinduism is not far behind Islam in Gender discrimination. And , the priests, less said the better. Swamis and gurus are the greatest fraud played on the Hindus. Pity even in 2006 people believe in these gurus. I feel sometimes that Hindus are the most week minded.

]]> By: Patrixhttp://www.ipatrix.com/1731/the-swami-narayan-experience/#comment-8474 Patrix Tue, 28 Nov 2006 04:42:52 +0000 http://www.ipatrix.com/2006/11/27/the-swami-narayan-experience/#comment-8474 <strong>MumbaiGirl</strong>, actually I too was quite impressed with the temple structure and its intricate although mechanical carvings but the whole gender discrimination put me off and am afraid, I can't return. <strong>Bloghopper</strong>, Nope! In fact, there was an explicit sign that said that women are not allowed beyond that point when the aarti is in progress. Saw that as we were departing. MumbaiGirl, actually I too was quite impressed with the temple structure and its intricate although mechanical carvings but the whole gender discrimination put me off and am afraid, I can’t return.

Bloghopper, Nope! In fact, there was an explicit sign that said that women are not allowed beyond that point when the aarti is in progress. Saw that as we were departing.

]]> By: DesiPundit » Archives » Temple And Discriminationhttp://www.ipatrix.com/1731/the-swami-narayan-experience/#comment-8473 DesiPundit » Archives » Temple And Discrimination Tue, 28 Nov 2006 03:26:35 +0000 http://www.ipatrix.com/2006/11/27/the-swami-narayan-experience/#comment-8473 [...] Patrix visits a Swami Narayan Temple and comes back disappointed. [...] [...] Patrix visits a Swami Narayan Temple and comes back disappointed. [...]

]]> By: bloghopperhttp://www.ipatrix.com/1731/the-swami-narayan-experience/#comment-8471 bloghopper Tue, 28 Nov 2006 00:48:21 +0000 http://www.ipatrix.com/2006/11/27/the-swami-narayan-experience/#comment-8471 The swaminarayan temple that I have been to did not seperate the men and women. It probably must have been a divider so that people stand on either side of the rope and get a good view of the lord and the aarti. The swaminarayan temple that I have been to did not seperate the men and women. It probably must have been
a divider so that people stand on either side of the rope
and get a good view of the lord and the aarti.

]]> By: MumbaiGirlhttp://www.ipatrix.com/1731/the-swami-narayan-experience/#comment-8470 MumbaiGirl Mon, 27 Nov 2006 22:53:45 +0000 http://www.ipatrix.com/2006/11/27/the-swami-narayan-experience/#comment-8470 The temple priests from the sect aren't allowed to go near women, so that murti worship remains "pure." I marvel at the workmanship of the London temple and like the food in the cafe, but these issues really disturb me. I haven't seen men and women being separated during an arti, but maybe it's because I've been at the wrong time. The temple priests from the sect aren’t allowed to go near women, so that murti worship remains “pure.”
I marvel at the workmanship of the London temple and like the food in the cafe, but these issues really disturb me. I haven’t seen men and women being separated during an arti, but maybe it’s because I’ve been at the wrong time.

]]>