Students – the real ones – not to blame

Several readers, either via email or comments informed me that the students at IIPM aren’t to blame for the institution’s dubious dealings. Of course, how could they? I agree. My earlier remarks on the IIPM students may have been impulsive and unnecessarily harsh. However, I still believe that IIPM and Arindham C. have been pulling a fast one on the gullible Indian student population.

We have plenty of students; some not as brilliant or competitive as to enter the hallowed halls of premier institutions like IIT and IIM. Competition is intense and tall claims & promises of landing a high-paying job on the way to a distinguished career is a dream that not many can turn away from. Hope, in that way, is a dangerous thing. Students frustrated by their inability to get in IIMs can be easily lured by snazzy pictures and famous names. Dare to think beyond IIM — can make a great advertising slogan but if not backed up by your academic reputation can fall flat and even work counter-productive to your claims. No company is magically going to recruit your graduate because you made such promises. Reputation is built over the years. That’s why IITs or IIMs don’t advertise yet attract the cream of Indian students (at least in engineering and management).

If I am to trust IIPM and their claims, I must see irrevocable evidence of their director Arindham C.’s academic credentials as well as complete proof of their advertising claims. Educational institutes are primarily a business in India; heck it should be as long as they keep their consumers i.e. students satisfied. The education consumers invest their best years in your promises and if they are mislead deliberately, the institute should be punished; severely. Education institutes in other countries encourage students to visit their campuses, talk to their faculty and students before making a choice. Transparency is the norm. I don’t see that happening here. Finally, the poor student suffers. 

The IIPM blog wars aren’t directed towards their students, who have simply decided to invest in their future by trusting a dubious source. If any IIPM graduate or student (real ones please; I hate those fake bloggers if they indeed are students) is willing to voice out their concerns or give us an insider look into the institute, I would love to publish their thoughts, of course anonymously.

“Students – the real ones – not to blame” [Short URL: http://www.ipatrix.com/?p=943] was published Sunday, October 9th, 2005 at 11:14 am by Patrix, filed under Weblogs. Both comments and linkbacks are closed.

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  • http://makingpplsmile.blogspot.com shub

    glad you posted this…cos, I felt the “its potty-mouthed third-class graduates who don’t possess the necessary etiquette to exist in this world” was too caustic a genralisation in the previous post! :)

  • http://ipatrix.com Patrix

    Shub, I realized that I directed my ire in the wrong direction.

  • http://anthony.rediffblogs.com tony

    glad that you have posted the above. It sure isn’t fair to generalise the students. I think the students are as mad at the institute as us because they are ones who have been conned. By the I have also joined the FIGHT. Kill em All.

  • Andy

    …and dear Ms.Patrix (if that’s the name I should refer to),

    this message is for you.

    i truly believe that your blog on IIPM’s latest issues is something you must have written with a lot of empathy (and sympathy) for us “suffering” iipm students. believe me, neither is required by any of us. what perhaps is required is neutral cynicism from the likes of you. i write the likes, because i have measured and weighed each of the words you have written; leaving a handful, i have found you wanting.

    if one were to review your orientation and that of the blogger community, your standpoints seem to be quite decisive (at least as per some of the links you are referring to), as follows:

    1. all negative viewpoints and sick messgages against rashmi have been obviously either been given by iipm or its faculty or its students; and if not the students, by some people who must necessarily be associated with iipm.

    2. all positive comments about iipm are obviously silly statements that iipm “henchmen” and “hooligans” have been instructed to post on various blogs; therefore they have zero credibility to start with.

    3. this takes the cake… All iipm students have been duped by Prof. arindam chaudhuri and he should now stand in front of all of you to prove his academic credentials. but why only him, according to blogs referred and linked thereon by you, all the faculty members should now stand accused and guilty and should beg for forgiveness from all the iipm students and india as a whole…. didn’t i tell you, this does take the cake. i especially loved the part where you keep the flag burning high by saying that severe punishment must be immediately rendered out.

    wow! of course, my name is andrew; but i must be prof. arindam chaudhuri himself; or one of his paid henchmen. i am sorry if my words sound acerbic or more like a diatribe, but the irritation that grows within me when i, as an iipm student, see the irresponsibility with which you, and many others, have supported unlettered blogs, is unfathomable.

    however, i appreciate many parts of your writing, wherein you have put across the fact that you might have written too much about certain aspects. the quality you display in accepting a mistake is not found normally in indians, less in the species knowns as journalists, and of course, least of all in ms. rashmi bansal who could not get even one fact right in her unbelievable article.

    but then, you would be right in telling me that i am jumping to conclusions on ms. rashmi and she actually is a good person. well, hasn’t everybody else, including dear you, jumped to conclusions?

    i return to the start of this post wherein i had clearly mentioned that what is required is neutral cynicism rather than presumptious logic that does not leave any person any space to present facts.

    neutral cynicism, i repeat, in the hope that one day these two words will form the basis for your logical analysis and posting of any blog…. neutral cynicism…

    best wishes and regards ma’m

    andrew

  • http://www.themaanga.blogspot.com Nilu

    Patrix,
    I do not know anything about IIPM and do not care much either unless they infringe upon my freedom.

    But I really thought Gaurav’s and by extension your argument that a person needs a degree from IIM to run an institute, appear on TV or propose a theory to be in bad taste.I have no problems with generalized name calling, for I enjoy that myself. But a degree of elitism that has crept in with “he is after all a Madras University graduate” etc is a stand that is only as laughable as IIPM’s sham itself is.

  • http://ipatrix.com Patrix

    Tony, yup…poor students shouldn’t be targeted..and kill’em all – isn’t that harsh? :)

    Andy, tsk tsk…Firstly, you get my sex wrong. Secondly, you commit the cardinal sin of blogosphere by littering comment boxes with redundant comments. Once is enough! Neutral cyncism that you so love to espouse would suit IIPM’s PR department much better. We wouldn’t be talking if that were the case, right?

    Nilu, institute elitism aside, this is about something else entirely. Lets talk about that when this blows over.

  • http://superstarksa.blogspot.com a

    Nilu: Tell me, from one Shan-ian (nice term la?) to another, did you ever agree with all the claims that our own alma-mater thrust upon the media sometimes when we were there, incl. the “research” tag? Essentially thats the question da. We expect academics to run academics. We expect businessmen to run businesses. The question is how are we going to brand IIPM’s dean. He brands himself a academic. Mebbe he is, but not a lot of ppl agree to that. Machi, come out with it, wouldn’t you enjoy doing something like this, yourself? I mean, wouldn’t you enjoy debunking someone’s slightly shady claims and laugh at his face? Other than that, I don’t think anybody took offense in him propounding theories and running educational institutions. If they did, I’d ask them to look elsewhere first at the zillions of private engg colleges around the country.
    Patrix: Sorry for hijacking your comments space.

  • http://constructal.blogspot.com Sameer

    I believe all colleges in India are involved in hyping their credentials to some degree. The engineering college which I came from (Maharashtra Institute of Technology – M.I.T.. ha ha) boasted about having India’s biggest engineering library (which was a sad joke!). Unfortunately we didn’t have blogs then! So Andrew don’t feel this is a first or IIPM students are alone.

    The sad thing is even in this day and age when it is so easy to check facts, these institutes feel that they can dupe the public. The outrageous thing is when someone calls their bluff they go out and launch the most hideous defence!

    Andrew: we are NOT just assuming that Gaurav and Rashmi are good and IIPM is bad. It’s that you or other anonymous IIPM bloggers have not convincingly refuted the facts mentioned in the JAM article. So its too hard to believe you when you don’t produce facts.

    In the end the facts may say that IIPM is not all that “top notch” as it claims in the ads. We all are fairly convinced of that. Its you who don’t want to face the reality.

  • http://thearbitcouncil.blogspot.com tac

    they may be saying they don’t need sympathy/support etc, but i have a feeling iimp-ians are going to need a lot of that once this blogrolls into a big big issue..unfort they have a disadv – the college is already on the defensive and anyone will rather up the ante than support them… best of luck i say!

  • Supriya Thakur

    Hi Patrix,
    It’ll be tough to takeover Andy’s mantle; but as another IIPM student on the holiday bench enjoing the Dussehra holidays, it’s tough taking out time to write on blogs. (Andy where are you? Remember to get me the Amaze details too). Patrix, it’s a tough call but your statements on IIPM, its faculty, its students, and the background thereon perhaps are completely based on your “perception” than on facts. But still, I do agree that perception is built on what you have experienced from secondary sources.

    But seriously, there is one thing that I have got convinced about after reading your blog, and other blogs on the IIPM issue. Almost all blogs contain information that either cannot be believed, or are just pure personal commentaries that rant on and on. Please don’t mind this, but even your blog seems to be just your personal feelings rather than any hard data.

    I find that the flow of information between blogs is just based on sometimes useless, sometimes part useful cross-linkages with other blogs, rather than on directly providing hard data. One site jammag at least seemed to have done some research on IIPM. (At least they did some research, unlike all the other blogs that are just commentating).

    Unfortunately, I don’t need to proclaim myself to be an IIPM student to strike out whatever semblance of research jammag proclaims (though, I personally do feel that my claiming to be an IIPM student at this point would only put me right in front of the various machine guns firing away).

    Patrix, I find it also very surprising that you have never assumed a critical position with respect to questioning the authenticity of the jammag research itself. Which brings me to the final point.

    And that is, if you talk to any IIPM student, they would be least concerned with the jammag blog or Rashmi’s article. Most importantly because our faculty has continuously taken care to keep us informed about the false nature of the research and Rashmi’s lack of research focus.

    But despite this, and despite Andy’s replies refuting so many points of Rashmi, these points have not found favour in your repetitive blogs; thus convincing me further about a very strongly worded point (please don’t mind it), that you are as biased as they could ever get. (I repeat, please please please please don’t mind my statement).

    How unbelievable can it be that despite such a clear pronunciation of the hollowness of Rashmi’s research, not one of your lines in your blogs mentions even an iota of Andy’s argument? Patrix, it is truly unbelievable.

    It does not matter whether I assume the standpoint of an IIPM student, which I surely am proud to be, or the standpoint of a neutral personality, I am truly convinced that writing on your blog would lead at least me nowhere because even logic doesn’t seem to be hitting home.

    And about Gaurav Sabnis; well, I feel sorry for that guy. He shouldn’t have resigned. Period. Freedom of speech is a hogwash that will obviously continue for a long time to come. I feel sorry for Gaurav because of the fact that he had to resign after believing that the research that Rashmi did was true. I feel sorry for him because I think he’s insensible in having supported Rashmi’s technically incorrect research.

    But Patrix, do you know what’s the saddest part of it all. One day after today, you’ll again release a blog post that will again go on ranting (please please, I beg you, please don’t mind my words) about how freedom of speech is blah blah blah blah.

    I am sorry Patrix, I give up on you. I hope you improve. Again, with the parting comment, I remain, like all IIPM students, such a non-believer in the amazingly false research of Rashmi and jammag.

    With apologies in advance for some of my words
    (I really am sorry for using strong words).

  • http://ipatrix.com Patrix

    Sameer, I agree that almost all educational institutes exaggerate their claims but I haven’t come across a single one who is bullying someone who has dared to point out the false claims. That’s wrong! People are free to believe their ads and enroll. They aren’t using my money to fool themselves, right? But don’t stop me when I point out your false claims.

    Tac, they don’t have my sympathy or support. All I can say is that tough luck, mate!

  • http://ipatrix.com Patrix

    Supriya, I am not sure if you are a real student because of all the fake blogs floated around by IIPM (you know what I am talking about) but I give you the benefit of the doubt. Plus, it lets me elaborate on some issues that you have raised.

    First of all, trust me it is really easy to take over Andy’s mantle (if he exists), you just have to learn to capitalize the first letters in a sentence (my pet peeve if you don’t)..voila! you have an IIPM graduate. Anyways, jokes aside, you mostly find fault in my argument that I believed Rashmi more than I believed Arindham. Well, you see social networking is such a wonderful thing that several months of reading someone’s words online can actually make you trust them. See, you were impressed by IIPM’s large-format ads in newspapers and I was impressed by Rashmi’s credible and honest words.

    You also doubt her research methods. I guess you don’t need advanced regression models to see that there is no swimming pool on campus as promised. Forget swimming pools, why do companies that IIPM touts as having recruited IIPM graduates continuously refuse having seen an IIPM campus ever? Why doesn’t Arindham reveal more about his academic credentials and his faculty roster? Why doesn’t…nah! forget it…why do I care, I have no intentions of being anywhere close to an IIPM ‘campus’.

    As a business student, if you feel that free speech is a hogwash, I must say that your business ethics professor must teach empty classes, right?

    Lastly, as you clearly and repeatedly mention that our blogs are a medium of personal opinion, why is IIPM getting so needlessly uptight about some unkind words from people whom it doesn’t give a damn about? They are after all, personal opinions and heck, no one in the world can stop me from having them. Ask my parents, they will have horror stories about my personal opinions. Please read my latest post on what this fight is all about…and if you still don’t get it, hmmmm…how do I say this politely…STFU.

  • http://whydoubothercominghere.blogspot.com neel

    Amazing how we come so close to the heart of the matter, and then a dozen obfuscations and rebuttals get us right back out again. Probably all the time we spend defending particular points. What we should be concentrating solely on is that blogs are (to a large extent, atleast) expressions of PERSONAL VIEWS. I think its so obvious, now; at the basic level, where the hell does “authenticity” come in? A blogger “blogs” to say what he wants, that’s his final aim. And you cannot punish him for that. Sending him legal notices? And hate emails and comments? That’s so “second-hander” ish, if u know what i mean…

  • Supriya Thakur

    Dear Patrix,
    Did you ask me to STFU?!!?? (I did not know the full form and had to ask my friend; I was shocked Patrix)

    Well, at least commentators could have hidden under false identities after bad mouthing; you can not.

    But I do understand the non-acceptance of logical arguments that forces you to use such words and makes you say STFU to me.

    My reply, I am sorry if I have hurt you in any way. And as this is your blog, and as you have so kindly informed me that my free speech rights need to be STFUed, I shall take your leave.

    Thanks anyway; and I hope you do not say STFU to this message at least; as it is truly in the spirits of a healthy debate.

    Regards and wishes always,
    Supriya Thakur

  • Sachin Khandekar

    Dear Supriya, Dear Andy,

    I’ve been following these anti IIPM and the anti-anti IIPM blogs closely. And looking at the crop of the pro-IIPM blogs, I really feel happy to have read your views. I’m not an IIPM student, but yes – I’m a MBA. I said I was happy to see your and Andy’s comments (I’ve even mailed it to Gaurav) as I could finally find some legitimate IIPM students giving their opinions in a language that is not foul/vulgar/loathsome. And Supriya, please ignore the vulgar expletives used by Patrix.

    Supriya/Andy, I can sense the feeling of restrained rancor in your posts. The salient assumptions that the two of you have made seem to be -

    1. Rashmi Bansal has done a very poor job of reporting the shortcomings in IIPM. Not a single allegation is true. To quote Andy -”…ms. rashmi bansal who could not get even one fact right in her unbelievable article” or to quote Supriya – “amazingly false research of Rashmi and jammag”

    2. The entire world seems to be building opinions on the basis of perceptions, not facts. IIPM is being targetted for no reason.

    3. Arindham Chaudhuri’s academics are absolutely irrelevant when it comes to admiring him as the contemporary management guru.

    4. Freedom of speech is just an illusion – so what if it’s murdered?

    Before I begin to post my views, I need to caution that these are my personal views – dont try to stamp me as anti-IIPM.

    1. Technically IIPM is right in saying things like “8 wi-fi towers which are architectural marvels, with swimming pools and gyms….”
    Note that it doesn’t explicitly say that “Every IIPM tower has a swimming pool/gym/golf club and etc etc”
    The gullable reader, however, tends to believe it exactly this way. So if only one of IIPM’s premises has a golf course/gym/…, do you think it’s ethical on IIPM’s part to shout at the top of it’s voice abt these things?

    2. A lot of things in the IIPM ads are really beguiled. Take for eg, Free laptops to everyone. We all know – there’s no free lunch in this world. After charging these exhorbitant fees of several lakhs, a laptop of around 30-40K seems pretty nothing.

    Free study trip to Europe – again, there’s a catch. One has to cough up an extra 1 lakh for the trip (last yr it was around 50K). So how is it free anyways?

    3. I dont want to draw up a list of all things that IIPM does wrong – it has already been researched by Rashmi.
    My point is – if IIPM is all so neat and clean, and that Rashmi/Gaurav are malevolent, why did IIPM react so belligerently with those childish (notarized and legally ratifed) notices to Rashmi/Gaurav? IIPM didn’t stop at that – it went to the extent of harrassing Gaurav and IBM. Their threat of IIPM student union burning IBM laptops was so goosy that I nearly fell off laughing. NOte that IIPM doesn’t even have a student union – wonder who was going to burn the IBM laptops then. The damages seeked? – Rs 125 crores!!! There’s yet another blogger who was sent a legal notice by IIPM. This time the defamation amount spiralled up to Rs 175 crores!

    All this makes me with a very poor opinion about IIPM. They may be right (with all those boombastic claims) but the way in which they’ve reacted and dealt with this whole episode doesn’t really pose a good picture of IIPM. Unfortunatly, the clan of Arindham, A.Saxena et al have nothing to lose in this. They’ll still keep on getting students. It’s the students who stand to lose in the whole fiasco.
    I dont know who the foul mouthed bloggers are. Dont know whether they are created by the same person. But I know this guy Gaurav Sabnis he’s a real person (not a fake blogger) and it’s really sad to see to witness the way in which he had been targetted.

    Supriya/Andy – would still be proud to say that you are from IIPM?

    Sachin.

  • http://ipatrix.com Patrix

    Neel, exactly! I have been trying to emphasize this over and over again. I guess IIPM needs a course in clarity management.

    Supriya, ah-ha! the ma’am is back again, eh? Too bad you retained just the final sentence of my long reply. I guess short-term memory is far too common. STFU was the most polite I can be. BTW, I have another word that you can ask your friend – nincompoop. I’ll understand if she/he doesn’t know it either. Trust me, its a compliment.

    Sachin, dude, you don’t have to apologize on my behalf. This is my personal fiefdom.

    Rest you have it right. I had just heard about IIPM and had a neutral opinion pre-10/10. Judging by their reaction to Gaurav and Rashmi’s post, they have lost all credibility and respect. The students in IIPM are losing it fast too…they better get out before its too late.

  • vh

    Hi there,

    I am a student of IIPM (oops!) but I’ve been there only a month now and I was really unaware of this huge issue. But I will share a few things which I know about them through first-hand experience and not hearsay.

    I don’t hold a brief for IIPM nor do I take sides in this issue.

    Having got rid of those disclaimers, let me say a few points:

    About the original JAM-mag article:

    Surprisingly, you know, there was nothing surprising in that article when I read it. All that I read in that article I *knew* before I joined IIPM. I accepted these shortcomings nonetheless because I felt I needed an MBA qualification and I couldn’t wait another year for writing the entrance for IIM. I made that choice consciously and it was a personal decision. I believed that this institute could offer me something for my money and I still do.

    Whatever be the shortcomings of IIPM, I must say that I personally did not feel that they were “cheating” me in any way. Most of the “researched” items of IIPM appearing in that JAM-mag article I could find out merely by asking a few queries at the admission office before I joined. In fact, they were quite open about the fact that they were not an institute recognized by any statutory educational body and also some of the other things about the degree/diploma they give. I also knew that I was taking some risk in pursuing this course, but of course, I was willing to take that risk.

    The syllabus is fairly good, the staff members are good too. They appear to be sincere and are quite passionate about what they believe in. That is my impression anyhow. So even if they do not provide a swimming pool, at least they conduct classes regularly and the course is interesting and informative. It’s more about being a management training course with a focus on personality development rather than being entirely centred on academics.

    I agree that their print ads seem a bit extravagant and I won’t comment on that. Personally I didn’t see any ad before I joined. But the fact is, anybody can verify the facts for themselves by asking a few questions around. I never got the feeling they were hiding anything from me when I first stepped into their building although I did realize that some of their claims may have been a bit exaggerated. Which is quite understandable in this day of media hype and frenzy.

    So where does the truth lie in this whole thing? Probably somewhere in the middle of the two extremes as is often the case in such controversies.

    Can IIPM really compare against IIMs?

    No. It’s different. The whole course is not academic centric, but career centric. IIMs are of course the premier institute. IIPM is still young, but I think they are serious and they believe in what they do. So there is really no basis for comparison. IIMs do enjoy the status of being the premier B-schools in India and it may take some decades before anybody else can seriously challenge them.

    The point I’m trying to make is: IIMs and IIPMs probably target a different set of student communities. So really, there’s no confrontational aspect to that.

    As to this recent blog wars episode and the lawsuits, I again cannot comment since I don’t know the full facts of the matter.

    So while I understand your feelings of outrage over this unfortunate episode, I request you (and all the other bloggers involved) to take a step back, calm down and then evaluate this institute without letting emotions colour and distort your perception. I think all we need is to be cool and calm rather than hot and emotional.

    All this post contains is my personal experience so far at the institute. I may be wrong in some areas, but then I know that I am being honest when I write this entry.

    With Regards,

    vh

    (Forgive me for using a somewhat cryptic pseudonym and not revealing my contact details. If it lessens my credibility, I’m afraid I cannot help that, but you will realize that I am somewhat wary of leaving my e-mail here (which appears to be exposed to public view in this blog) because it can be traced and I prefer not to expose myself to any kind of harassment from anybody whatsoever. I hope you will understand my point of view.)

  • http://ipatrix.com Patrix

    VH, I am glad someone from inside IIPM has a rational response. I agree with most of your thoughts and even somewhat accept your claims that IIPM’s syllabus and faculty might be good. Your thoughts on IIPM-IIM comparison might be closer to the truth than what your other colleagues are trying to tell us.

    The blogger’s grudge against IIPM was simply their lopsided way of handling criticism by sending a legal notice via email. It was seen as an attempt to stop us from expressing our opinion on our space. The threats to IBM that made Gaurav resign was also deplorable. The fake blogs and personal comments on Rashmi and Varna’s blogs didn’t help them either. IIPM has in fact got everyone interested in examining their hyped claims in newspaper ads. Now what might follow is entirely their doing. As the cliche goes, it has opened a can of worms. I hope you get some time to acquaint yourself with fact and look at this issue again. We just want to make students who might be considering joining IIPM aware of some facts.

    PS. Anonymity regards your name and email id is understandable or even encouraged. Thanks for your thoughts.

  • vh

    Patrix, thanks for the response. I sincerely appreciate it. I have been through several blogs now and I’ve read some of the comments by so-called IIPM students. It’s ridiculous and pathetic and a serious embarrassment to people like me. If they’re really IIPM students, that is… I am still really doubtful whether students would have really reacted like that.

    In any case, whoever did it probably:

    (a) reacted emotionally in the heat of the moment and are regretting it now or

    (b) deliberately trolled merely to get a rise out of you people and/or with the sole intention of further damaging IIPM’s reputation.

    This has been a very difficult period for me personally because of this issue. I only hope that it’s resolved and everybody can benefit out of the whole thing. I hope that IIPM takes this to heart and addresses these concerns.

    I hope more rational voices get heard amidst all this and allow the dust to settle…

    Regards,

    vh

  • http://ipatrix.com Patrix

    VH, All I can do is wish you all the best for your future. But don’t hesistate to contact me or any of the bloggers (via email or otherwise) if you want to share thoughts regarding IIPM. Your confidentiality will be respected.

  • reggi

    Dear,

    In all, its the students of iipm who are going to suffer the most. that bugger AC has got his money and probabely got it invested elsewhere as well. But wha about the students? is’s a losing proposition to them in this whole saga.

    Reggi

  • vh

    I agree with the previous comment. The bloggers involved probably don’t realize (or fully understand) that the implication of this whole thing is that the owners/administrators of IIPM have least to lose in this, however bad publicity they get. They have made their pile and (if all that is alleged about them is true) will be glad to shut up shop overnight and leave.

    Where does it leave all of us who’ve invested our parents’ hard earned money? In the eagerness to make a mockery of IIPM, the bloggers have probably crossed a sensitive line where the issue isn’t about IIPM at all. It’s about us students who’re caught in the middle. It’s agonizing that this issue has come up and at the same time it makes it so difficult for us to voice our concerns in public too for fear of harrassment. The reputation of the institute will deeply affect the prospects of these students.

    Luckily I don’t speak for myself. I am highly self-confident, motivated and I probably can get a well-paying job on my own steam. It’s however, about those who have fully placed all their hopes in IIPM who will really suffer if there is any damage to the institute’s reputation. Believe me, damaged reputation is the hardest to rebuild. It’s easy for outsiders to say that we should just leave the institute.

    It’s not so easy as that – apart from the substantial money we’ve spent, it’s also about precious time which we can never get back. Most of all. it’s about the psychological stress that we undergo in a situation like that. As I said, please do put yourself in that position – suppose your company or the place you work in gets a bad name and you’re quite closely attached to the company emotionally – how you would feel when all that you’ve believed in is crashing down?

    I’m not asking you to stop criticizing. It’s your right to do so. But I request you to please do so in a balanced manner and with empathy and consideration. Please enhance your own reputations by coming out with well-considered responses to our concerns too. Some of the bloggers have been so excessively critical that they’ve crossed the point where their statements would so well damage careers of otherwise well-meaning students. Words spoken or written emotionally and in haste can do so much damage to so many people.

    So many students who’ve joined IIPM aren’t rich or upper-middle class at all. In spite of the impression that the fees give you, many of us have taken bank loans to pay these fees. At the risk of repetition, these people have shown and invested a lot of faith in IIPM and it would hurt these people a lot if IIPM suffers. They aren’t rich or well-placed in life. They’re people with dreams of a better future. While you have every right to comment on IIPM, do so with an appreciation of the implications this will have on these guys. Please note that I’m not talking about the issue of IIPM’s credibility. I’m talking about how it would affect the students involved here.

    Please think about it. I’m being very open and frank. I ask all well-meaning individuals to please spread this message of mine.

    With regards,

    vh

  • vh

    I’ve just read some very disturbing details about IIPM and Planman which I haven’t read before in any of the blogs (an e-mail sent by an ex-IIPM student which was circulated to others in mailing lists) and if it’s true, it would very well make me leave this course.

    Hmmmm……..

  • http://ipatrix.com Patrix

    vh, If you can send me that email, it would be great. If you wish, I can keep your identity anonymous.

    Regards your previous comment, I am sorry I do not buy into your argument of considering the welfare of the students. Believe me, I do not wish ill-will of them but the market can be merciless and they would be anyway pre-judged. If we can bring out the shortcomings of institutes like IIPM, then we can prevent students from joining them in the future otherwise we are just caught in a vicious circle.

    As you also mention, they can simply shut shop and leave one day (this has happened before with another dubious education institute). Emotional arguments have been made by bloggers and IIPM students; in fact they are human reactions to an issue. But there have been mature and responsible reactions from bloggers too but we have seen none from IIPM students (with the exception of yours). So we need the truth to come from the IIPM students. This way, they can only help in preventing any fraud that might be perpetuating in the name of education.

  • vh

    Patrix, may I post the contents of that mail here?

    Now, the other issue:

    Let me clarify my previous comment. It’s not an equal battle (if there is one) here.

    Think of it this way: For the bloggers, they have almost nothing to lose. For them it’s just another topic to discuss like the news and the weather and once this is exhausted, they will move on to other things. For many of the students involved, it’s their life and future. Some have spent 7-8 lakhs on this course and from my perspective I do feel for them because this issue is indirectly affecting them even though many of them might not even be aware of it.

    There are two possibilities:

    1. If IIPM is not a fraud and your allegations are false, you’ve probably irreparably damaged the reputation of this institute and it would definitely affect the students…

    2. If IIPM was a fraud and your allegations are true, then they wouldn’t hesitate to just close down their operations one fine day because some of the things I’ve read about them make me certain that they wouldn’t care a damn. Again it’s the same situation for the students. While your efforts to highlight this institute’s wrong-doings are laudable, how does it really help the current batches of students?

    So in reality, it’s a lose-lose situation for us.

    So I asked for empathetic treatment of the subject. I didn’t ask you to stop criticizing IIPM at all. In fact it’s within your rights to do so. I just request you to think about what I said and understand the implications of the issue which we are discussing.

    Now, regarding the blog wars:

    I am not trying to condemn Gaurav or Rashmi. But reading the original articles which sparked off this whole thing, they do seem to have handled this issue without sensitivity in the first place. I am sure that you would agree that some of their remarks in the articles were quite inflammatory and unsubtle (while admitting that they were well within their rights to write whatever they felt like). However, had they been a little more sensitive and thoughtful, I don’t think this issue would have blown out like an inferno and created so much unpleasantness. That said, there’s no excuse of the spammers/fake bloggers who claim to be IIPM students (Since I cannot be sure of their identities, I don’t take a stand on this one). But the point I’m making is simply this: there seems to have been provocation on both sides. Let’s not just condemn one side outright while totally absolving the other. That’s all.

    Regards

  • http://ipatrix.com Patrix

    VH, Yup. You can post the email here. I’ll address the issues you raise later, if you don’t mind.

  • vh

    Patrix, before I post the e-mail, I would like to give you an update of what I’ve been doing.

    The IIPM controversy, of which a surprisingly large number of students (at least in my batch) were not at all aware of, is now creating a few doubts in the minds of my classmates about the institute. While I had been talking to and educating my class mates about this IIPM issue, this e-mail which we received from one of our friends in our mailing list was what really sparked off our doubts. I am now in contact with my class mates and also I have urged them to make a decision regarding this in consultation with their parents. I am trying to do my best to address this issue, but you will realize it’s so difficult to talk about it to many students on the campus for obvious reasons. Of course, some of them have been genuinely concerned, while others have not really taken it seriously. But I believe I have done my duty which was to make them aware of it. How they interpret it is up to them.

    However, those of us who are concerned are trying to co-ordinate among ourselves to try and address it. Since the time has now come for us to pay our second installment of fees, we want to really make a decision before we pay whether to continue at all in this course…

    Now you will forgive my continued anonymity, but I realize that this is a crucial and delicate time for me, and so to enable me to continue to speak freely, I will continue to go under my pseudonym.

    Here is the e-mail body: (forgive me if this is old news to you. of course we received it recently after several forwards so I am not sure of the origin of this mail)

    Quote:
    -
    Plz read this link also if u want the whole story:
    http://www.jammag.com/careers/articles/mbacorner/iipm/index.htm

    The Truth

    This has been written as a response after reading a blog-post by Gaurav Sabnis. What follows has been written by an IIPM ex-student as well as ex-employee. Please read it completely and also forward it to as many people as you can so more students and parents are not lotted out of lakhs of rupees and their careers are not ruined by Planman

    Thanks for raising this issue. It is indeed a shame how a person with minimal academic qualifications (MA Economics Correspondence Chennai University) has successfully managed to fool so many people with such convincing effect that the self-styled management guru and inventor of the “I Theory”, as he has come to be known, is given more prominence in the media than Cambridge educated PhDs in Economics or Harvard trained MBAs. (Wonder who crowned him “Professor” anyway?) The print media plays a role in this game of deception as it earns huge revenues from IIPM’s advertisements. Thus what you come to know in the Tribune or Times of India is that laptops aredistributed free (which is a blatant lie, as the cost is
    included in the Rs 7 lac plus fee) and where the students went for the GOTA (a waste of time and money anyway as students learn nothing) and not where they got their jobs and at what compensation. No names of the job recipients are divulged. No text books are given free, unlike other institutes like FORE, TAPMI, Welingkars or IMT Ghaziabad. Students have to depend on handouts and class notes only. Most of them do nothave a clue
    as to where an idea is taken from. The institute puts an overemphasis on unnecessary or irrelevant course requirements which may or may not be required in the industry as a means of impressing would-be parents and students to cough out the dough needed for a ‘proper management education’ which stresses on ‘MBE course content’. Also the excessive stress on
    presentations in formal attire, which normally constitutes 40% of the course requirement makes the students plagiarise from B-magazines without gaining any proper perpective. None of what the Chaudhuris preach is original. All of them had been taught before by professors in the IITs, IIMs and IISc long before Arindam packaged it in “Count Your Chickens..”. In the process he made millions.Wonder why no one brought out the
    charge of plagiarism against them before?

    The fuel cost for Arindam Chaudhuri’s Jaguar/ BMW runs into lakhs (even the fuel is imported) per week and the family expenses run into unmentionable amounts. One can shudder in horror. One can imagine the sheer wastage of wealth of the middle class who by way of educating their children spend
    millions to enrich the coffers of the Chaudhuri family, for little merit of theirs. That IMI, Belgium degrees are of no value in India does not come as a surprise either. People whohave had MBA degrees from IMI who had tried to get admission to universities in India and abroad were told that as IMI degree can be completed three years after 10+2, they would be regarded as BBAs or as undergraduate degree holders. I knew of one who, after coming to the US had to start all over again as a data entry operator (which is what she did in India) and had to re-enroll for another MBA programme at a
    third grade university (a four year college, incidentally, which offers an MBA course).

    The talk of professors from Harvard, Columbia, INSEAD and Yale deserves to be addressed. IIPM paid huge fees to some of these professors to give a one-time guest lecture. What the public will know from the press is that these professors take classes at IIPM which is false. But it should also be mentioned that IIPM does its bit to gather the best of industry and academic brains (from IIT, IIM, IISc., IIFT, FMS, Delhi School of Economics etc.) to take classes on a regular basis.They are regarded as ‘external faculty’. Planman members do the rest.

    If there are anything that can be really said good about IIPM, they can be summed up as:

    1) development of communication skills
    2) presentation skills
    3) marketing skills
    4) financial problem solving skills and perhaps most importantly
    5) personality development and attitude development.

    Too bad that segments of the family run Indian industry which is traditionally Lala-company dominated, cannot appreciate these finer aspects. But the Government of India and PSUs send its officers for part time training on deputation. Senior Planman faculty like Vistasp Mallegamwala have trained PSU staff. It is also quite surprising that the only properly trained faculty is the dean A. Sandeep who earned his
    PGDBM (3 year evening) at IIM Calcutta. The other faculty N Chamoli, Prasoon Majumdar are only MA holders in Economics. Ex-students, they could notclear their MBA degree.

    IIPM passouts (“grads”) get jobs as DSAs, data entry operators, sales representatives (A. Sandeep started his career as a sales rep, while doing part time PGDBA at IIMC), financial and insurance agents, space selling agents , multi-level- marketing agents, account executives, and brokers. Most of the rest (provided they have or have developed excellent verbal communication skills in accent-free English, and who are fluent in making presentations with a smattering of knowledge of economics and marketing, which comes in handy) are absorbed by IIPM / Planman as they
    havenowhere else to go. On joining Planman, they are sworn to secrecy that prohibits them from foreclosing any details. Also they cannot clear their exams even if they want to leave as their contracts are time bound. They can clear their remaining exams only after they have served their terms and have offered their resignations. They cannot apply for jobs that require
    “post MBA work experience”. And they cannot criticize IIPM ever as that might led to their future careerprospects being jeopardised. Also IIPM alumni are rarely willing to admit that they made a wrong choice as the admission of personal liability points to lapse of judgement on the part of the
    student. The talk of EQ as being more decisive than the IQ in corporate decisions leads unwary students, into being unwitting followers of the Pied Piper that is the Chaudhuri family. Many alumni after failing to get jobs, and after wasting their parent’s lifetime provident fund /annuity and
    retirement savings, lose all their face and social standing. Many become nervous wrecks, drug addicts, swindlers, and drug peddlers.

    It is also interesting to note how few IMI degrees (which are scraps of paper, useless anyway) are awarded every year. IIPM /Planman have controlling stake in IMI. So IMI cannot terminate its contract with IIPM even if it wanted to. One of the better kept industry secrets is that IIPM has the controlling stake in the Times of India as well. So the Times
    would never go so far as to criticize it. But Hindustan Times is not obligated to do so. That is why the criticisms of IIPM first appeared in HT.

    I think it is high time that in the general interest of the student community and those interested in the state of education in India, that AICTE, UGC and AIU be given powers to investigate charges of fraud in non-affiliated institutes. Perhaps a CBI investigationagainst IIPM / Planman / Chaudhuri family might be a good way to start. Our student population deserve better than to be regarded as ‘markets’.
    -

  • chandan

    hey guys, a new entrant

    I have gone through all blogs(atleast most of them).

    Now in short words , there is one thing that we can do,
    contact some x-iipm students and get a list of their placements for any recent years (2003,04,05 etc)

    then, also get details about the GOTA program and its validity and credibility

    finally get the in-house faculty list and qualification

    Actually its not so tough and so much is not required

    Just some facts and things will be clear, No Listen guys,
    let all of us, try to get real student names, their placement and iipm’s role in that with their contact emails

    I AM TRYING TO DO THIS, WHOEVER IS INTERESTED IN HELPING
    ME, REPLY AND LET US END THIS WITH “the truth”.

    Bye for now, chandan (treio.geni@gmail.com)

  • Ex iipm Student

    Andy or should I say Andrew Sir is a BBA/MBA from iipm who is now working in iipm delhi c-10 or b-27 tower (or is in planman consulting if i remember correctly).

    Anyhow, allow me to open up some more details about iipm. Consider this – How can an institute that takes in 700+ students in one academic year claim to have 100% placements? I remember my times, the placements were on till 2 months and everyday we used to get a short notice on the notice board that the following company is coming on this date and so anyone interested in applying should apply by tommorow. Guess what.. almost everyone used to apply to the notice and only handful of students used to get a chance to get interviewed. I remember that the placements lasted for about 2 months and still 70 % of students were left to be placed. I was one of them.. on asking what now to the career management cell of iipm, we got a straighforward reply – we are still expecting more companies soon but those comapanies never really came until everyone unplaced was forced to find a job on their own merrit and through consultants. I was shocked to learn during my interview in my present company that the interviewer didnt even want to take people from iipm cuz the institute had no reputation. I got the job only due to my own merrit and initiative. Still many of my fellow batchmates were left in the loop of what to do…

    IIPM makes tall claims and never really delivers is what my complete experience has been.

  • chandan

    hi chandan here,

    what the x-iipm student has written above is, i feel real and this is not personal, because even i got to meet 2 students of 2004 batch and they had almost similar things to say.

    Finally, even they are not placed and therefore we can conclude

    1.) ATLEAST 100% PLACEMENT THING, THEY PRINT IN PAPERS IS
    A COMPLETE LIE, IT HAS NO MEANING BECAUSE I MYSELF GOT
    TO KNOW MANY GUYS WHO ARE LEFT IN THE LOOP, AND STILL
    SEARCH IS ON. WITH THAT I ALSO SAW SOME X-IIPM STUDENTS
    GETTING JOBS FROM OUTSIDE CONSULTANTS

    THIS IS A TOO BAD THING, SPECIALLY FOR A MANAGEMENT INSTITUTE, CLAIMING SOMETHING THAT THEY HAVE NOT ACHIEVED

    AND NOW I DONT THINK WE NEED TO ON MUCH FURTHER, JUST THE ABOVE FACT MIRRORS ALL OTHER THINGS

    Bye, chandan

  • OnePoint

    I would like to make two points here, having gone through almost all the blogs on this issue possible.

    Anyone claiming to be better than IIM has a bigger burden of proof, than a blogger claiming to know more.

    The fact that IIM is the best B-School cannot be denied under no circumstances… and an IIM grad(dropout??) like Rashmi could take on an institute will all the might of the media with them further proves the point.

    If a management institute which claims to impart better management education than IIM, couldn’t handle a blogger, then it just shows on the capabilities of that institute…

    I’ve a very modest academic qualification,and I’m certainly not an MBA, but I work in an organization, at the same grade as that of other MBA grads from various B-Schools, which just says a lot about these degrees.

    Bottom line we souldn’t be comparing IIM’s to other B-Schools when we know very well for a fact that they are the best …..


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